Bravo!! Here is to "trad" women/children/families!!
I do have to say one thing in defense of IVF. My wife and I (married in our mid-30s) tried for years unsuccessfully to have children. We tried diet, exercise, organic (and eventually non-organic) fertility treatment, prayer, everything. In our early 40s we had gotten to a point where my wife cried almost daily because we could not seem to get pregnant. I even had a dream which is one of the only dreams of thousands I can vividly recall where I was throwing baseball with a quiet sweet boy knew was my son.
Roughly 15 years ago, we decided to use IVF. Way back then the technology was such that they could not tell if a fertilized egg would turn out to be a Rhodes Scholar, but simply "red" or "green" (i.e., "viable" in medical terms). More prayers, more tears, and borrowing money discreetly from family members, we went ahead, and ended up with twins. FYI ... we did not "test" they fetuses for anything other than heartbeats. Why? Because no matter how they were born (if they were born), we would love them.
Fast forward to today. Our son is the last remaining male in my family. He plays sports and music, but not well enough to get into any "elite" college. My daughter dabbles at sports, music, and loves art. You will not see her work in any art gallery or international art show. Both attend Catholic school (mom and dad are Christians, but not Catholic). Before school every day, before meals, and before bed, they say their prayers and thank God for what He has given them, including loving parents and life. Mom and dad (me) joke that the only reason I survived a "bumpy" (to say the least) childhood and early adulthood was because God wanted my children to be alive. They bring us headaches, stress, and an abundance of bottomless joy.
As a postscript, we tried again, and after about 15 weeks, the faint heartbeat stopped. It was not meant to be. My wife ended up in the ICU after almost passing away from complications (she did survive). We learned a lot of lessons - ask God and He will provide, and always ALWAYS be grateful for what you do have.
A elderly neighbor once asked us why we had so many kids. We were expecting #6, our youngest. He paused for a second and then said with a smile, “I guess we just like each other.” Perfect answer.
What would life be without Peachy’s take on it? Im a 74y/o boomer with 2 unmarried and childless millennial sons. My wife and I are among the few people our age we know and who don’t have grandchildren. 2 of my younger brothers have 4 grandkids between them. My wife’s older brother has 2. My younger son is still trying to find a suitable mate. He is turning 40 in July. I think his older brother has given up at age 45, being past his “use by” date. It is very frustrating. Sometimes I think it’s too bad we don’t have the custom of arranged marriages in the USA. Any thoughts on that?
Yeah, expecting kids to just match up on their own with no input from older generations isn't a winning long term strategy. Socializing is important for everyone, but parties and gatherings used to very obviously be opportunities for suitable young people to meet and practice socializing and that seems to be mostly if not entirely gone, except in some enclaves.
For example, I wouldn't ever want my kids to go to a typical high school dance today (or how they were when I was in high school, for that matter). It's one thing if you're actually instructing in dance and deportment and etiquette, but that's not what they are.
I'm sorry about your kids. My parents have grandchildren, but they are the exception in their circles. My mom's sister has one grandchild, but other than that nobody else in the family has grandchildren. Their friends don't have them either. It really is sad.
It’s fascinating to compare the amount of time and energy our forebears spent on arranging marriages for their children AND themselves. (Just ask Jane Austen.) and how little time or energy we spend on the subject.
I honestly lucked out with my daughters, two of which have happy marriages and I’m blessed with 7 grandchildren. But I raised them in a large family, (we had 4) and so that’s what they themselves wanted. So much depends on young women wanting kids. When society works with biology to make that a rational desire, it’s a natural choice. Otherwise, well, humanity dies off. It’s an option.
It does seem to depend on the young women. my younger son still wants kids. But at age 40 he’ll have to “rob a cradle” to find a fertile woman. He has a good secure job and would be a good provider in a “traditional” marriage. He’s also a practicing Protestant Christian , but that doesn’t seem to help in this day and age, which is sad.
If I can give you a little hope: I married my husband when I was 25 and he 45. We have two wonderful children ( I would have loved for more, but he did not want to be chasing a teenager in his 70s).
That was great read 1st thing in the AM. I’d add two things. Have children before your parents get old, and don’t move out too quickly.
A couple raising children is much more difficult than an extended family raising children. Not everyone wants to live with in-laws, but when was the last time you heard a living with in-laws joke? 50 years ago? Not only is having children quite late in life a strategy now, but doing so as independently as possible. I can’t think of a worse way (rationally) to raise kids. [Caveat: I’m the married gay uncle who observes nieces and nephews, and helps when he can. And observes. And holds comments to himself.]
Of the various priorities you identify as obstacles (child rearing as career death), one of the biggest is “failure to launch” as failure.
Living with parents as you start a family worked for a few tens of thousands of years, why not now?
Another gay Keenan fan (Joe Keenan also good btw). I'm subscribing to your substack without looking at it ahead of time and very curious to see what I am going to receive.
Favorite was Keenan Wynn in “Dr Strangelove” (and “Absent-Minded Professor”, and later appeared hairily semi-nude on “McMillan and Wife” playing a devil worshipper). Sorry, the Sheldon is strong this morning.
You always make me laugh. Thank you! I agree with you 100%. In the Bible God said he would cut the wicked off from the face of the earth, and the righteous would inherit the earth. It only makes sense when you look at our current culture and see who is actually reproducing…..lol. God is usually ( always ) right. And means what he says.
I'm a 66 year old dad. Started having kids at 38, stopped at 45. I wish we would have started sooner. We probably would have had 6. I never imagined how great being their dad is, and how wonderfully they would turn out to be. I have family and friends with grandchildren, many younger than myself, but we'll get there eventually. All my kids want families of their own.
Peachy, right on as usual. Great work, and throwing in the comedy made me laugh and think simultaneously. We can just hope those "youngsters " are doing the same.
Im one of those who are getting too late, but I’m not losing hope. As long as God permits, I’ll have as many kids as possible. Just need to get a godly husband who’s willing to get onto this journey with me lol
Maybe you should see if they need any volunteers to help run the next conference. People pay up to $10,000 to attend, so it could make an interesting place to look for a spouse.
Great read. Thanks. I read something on Substack a few weeks ago that really hit home with me - happy people make babies. I cannot attribute the author and it may have been a lowly commenter 😉.
I think you're right, but also the bar for "maturity" is probably not as high as we think it is. If kids grow up in and around mostly healthy, well-adjusted families, and learn some of the practical skills of living in their own home, that goes a long way.
That said, my husband and started dating in our late teens and got married in our early 20s. We've done a lot of maturing over the course of our relationship (we've been together now for 20 years and neither of us is 40 yet), but a lot of that maturation has been done together. We were already pointed in the right direction - I think by our third or fourth date we both discussed that we ultimately wanted to get married and have a family, and weren't into the idea of a casual fling - so in our case I think it helped that we figured out the discipline and finances and other skills "on the go." And we've done a lot of really fun things together, too.
I don't think I missed out at all being married young. Our friends who are just getting around to deciding they'd like to settle down are having a lot of trouble and are a lot more set in the ways they learned as single adults.
I don't intend this to be discouraging to those who haven't found someone yet, but I think we sometimes think about the wedding as the goal and the personal growth comes before. Some does, but less than many people think.
The biggest impediment to early maturity, in my opinion, is high school… most young people, up to the early 1900s, finished school with an 8th grade education… if you ever tried to take an “8th grade” exit exam… they weren’t easy.
15-18 year olds had a totally different focus back then… oh, and no church youth groups either.
My great grandfather, at 15, decided to apply to Annapolis… and got in. 1872. And graduated at 20.
Early marriage would probably make most boys (and girls) mature, especially if the economy also provided family-supporting jobs. I'm in a group reading "Middlemarch" now. There is an old wealthy bachelor scholar, Mr. Casaubon, who takes - actually accepts the worship of - a younger woman, Dorothea Brook, from another wealthy family. While on a kind of honeymoon in Rome (where he does research for his never to be written book), she meets his younger cousin, whom he supports, Will Ladislaw, who has heretofore been a kind of perpetual graduate student. Ladislaw is affected enough by Dorothea that he returns to England to start a career and earn a living, so he could support a wife.
"Healthy, well-adjusted families" is the kicker. Rob Henderson and JD Vance's memoirs were, shall I say, very relatable to myself and the friends I had growing up, just without the happy endings for most of them that Vance and Rob had. I did all the growing up in my 20s I should've had in my teens and childhood. Most of my friends from those days haven't even gotten *that* far.
Between that and all the messaging I got and saw from my "parent" and friends' "parents" to avoid marriage, avoid kids.. a lot of us were set up to fail re: marriage and kids. And the problem is no doubt worse for today's youth and will continue to worsen—out of wedlock births in the US are at 50% now iirc.
Us 30 and 20 somethings who didn't have that stable family growing up and *want* to marry and have a family are figuring it out and having to in the dating hellscape as we go. At least the problem solves itself in the end, I guess. 🤷♂️
Married 43 years...6 kids...31 grandkids...one daughter a contemplative Poor Clare.
It comes down to religion. Raising children in this godless age is a sacrificial vocation. You only do it if you feel an obligation to a Power higher than yourself. You can't talk people into believing this...or living it.
The haunting Scriptural warning applies: "I have set before you life and death...the blessing and the curse...so choose life." The developed nations of the post-Christian world have made their choice, and I think they...we...are past the point of no return.
Bravo!! Here is to "trad" women/children/families!!
I do have to say one thing in defense of IVF. My wife and I (married in our mid-30s) tried for years unsuccessfully to have children. We tried diet, exercise, organic (and eventually non-organic) fertility treatment, prayer, everything. In our early 40s we had gotten to a point where my wife cried almost daily because we could not seem to get pregnant. I even had a dream which is one of the only dreams of thousands I can vividly recall where I was throwing baseball with a quiet sweet boy knew was my son.
Roughly 15 years ago, we decided to use IVF. Way back then the technology was such that they could not tell if a fertilized egg would turn out to be a Rhodes Scholar, but simply "red" or "green" (i.e., "viable" in medical terms). More prayers, more tears, and borrowing money discreetly from family members, we went ahead, and ended up with twins. FYI ... we did not "test" they fetuses for anything other than heartbeats. Why? Because no matter how they were born (if they were born), we would love them.
Fast forward to today. Our son is the last remaining male in my family. He plays sports and music, but not well enough to get into any "elite" college. My daughter dabbles at sports, music, and loves art. You will not see her work in any art gallery or international art show. Both attend Catholic school (mom and dad are Christians, but not Catholic). Before school every day, before meals, and before bed, they say their prayers and thank God for what He has given them, including loving parents and life. Mom and dad (me) joke that the only reason I survived a "bumpy" (to say the least) childhood and early adulthood was because God wanted my children to be alive. They bring us headaches, stress, and an abundance of bottomless joy.
As a postscript, we tried again, and after about 15 weeks, the faint heartbeat stopped. It was not meant to be. My wife ended up in the ICU after almost passing away from complications (she did survive). We learned a lot of lessons - ask God and He will provide, and always ALWAYS be grateful for what you do have.
A elderly neighbor once asked us why we had so many kids. We were expecting #6, our youngest. He paused for a second and then said with a smile, “I guess we just like each other.” Perfect answer.
I LOVE THAT
What would life be without Peachy’s take on it? Im a 74y/o boomer with 2 unmarried and childless millennial sons. My wife and I are among the few people our age we know and who don’t have grandchildren. 2 of my younger brothers have 4 grandkids between them. My wife’s older brother has 2. My younger son is still trying to find a suitable mate. He is turning 40 in July. I think his older brother has given up at age 45, being past his “use by” date. It is very frustrating. Sometimes I think it’s too bad we don’t have the custom of arranged marriages in the USA. Any thoughts on that?
Yeah, expecting kids to just match up on their own with no input from older generations isn't a winning long term strategy. Socializing is important for everyone, but parties and gatherings used to very obviously be opportunities for suitable young people to meet and practice socializing and that seems to be mostly if not entirely gone, except in some enclaves.
For example, I wouldn't ever want my kids to go to a typical high school dance today (or how they were when I was in high school, for that matter). It's one thing if you're actually instructing in dance and deportment and etiquette, but that's not what they are.
I'm sorry about your kids. My parents have grandchildren, but they are the exception in their circles. My mom's sister has one grandchild, but other than that nobody else in the family has grandchildren. Their friends don't have them either. It really is sad.
It’s fascinating to compare the amount of time and energy our forebears spent on arranging marriages for their children AND themselves. (Just ask Jane Austen.) and how little time or energy we spend on the subject.
I honestly lucked out with my daughters, two of which have happy marriages and I’m blessed with 7 grandchildren. But I raised them in a large family, (we had 4) and so that’s what they themselves wanted. So much depends on young women wanting kids. When society works with biology to make that a rational desire, it’s a natural choice. Otherwise, well, humanity dies off. It’s an option.
It does seem to depend on the young women. my younger son still wants kids. But at age 40 he’ll have to “rob a cradle” to find a fertile woman. He has a good secure job and would be a good provider in a “traditional” marriage. He’s also a practicing Protestant Christian , but that doesn’t seem to help in this day and age, which is sad.
If I can give you a little hope: I married my husband when I was 25 and he 45. We have two wonderful children ( I would have loved for more, but he did not want to be chasing a teenager in his 70s).
Thanks for this. It does give me hope
That was great read 1st thing in the AM. I’d add two things. Have children before your parents get old, and don’t move out too quickly.
A couple raising children is much more difficult than an extended family raising children. Not everyone wants to live with in-laws, but when was the last time you heard a living with in-laws joke? 50 years ago? Not only is having children quite late in life a strategy now, but doing so as independently as possible. I can’t think of a worse way (rationally) to raise kids. [Caveat: I’m the married gay uncle who observes nieces and nephews, and helps when he can. And observes. And holds comments to himself.]
Of the various priorities you identify as obstacles (child rearing as career death), one of the biggest is “failure to launch” as failure.
Living with parents as you start a family worked for a few tens of thousands of years, why not now?
Another gay Keenan fan (Joe Keenan also good btw). I'm subscribing to your substack without looking at it ahead of time and very curious to see what I am going to receive.
People named Keenan are always great.
Favorite was Keenan Wynn in “Dr Strangelove” (and “Absent-Minded Professor”, and later appeared hairily semi-nude on “McMillan and Wife” playing a devil worshipper). Sorry, the Sheldon is strong this morning.
I dunno, after Peachy and Joe, I like Keenen Ivory Wayans.
Don't forget his best work as the voice of the Winter Warlock!
There’s no Bass like a Rankin/Bass😉
You always make me laugh. Thank you! I agree with you 100%. In the Bible God said he would cut the wicked off from the face of the earth, and the righteous would inherit the earth. It only makes sense when you look at our current culture and see who is actually reproducing…..lol. God is usually ( always ) right. And means what he says.
Yeah it’s kind of obvious that if God is lifting the desire to procreate from a segment of the population, they aren’t going to be around long!
I'm a 66 year old dad. Started having kids at 38, stopped at 45. I wish we would have started sooner. We probably would have had 6. I never imagined how great being their dad is, and how wonderfully they would turn out to be. I have family and friends with grandchildren, many younger than myself, but we'll get there eventually. All my kids want families of their own.
Not saying it's the same thing. But you could always adopt one. I sometimes think if I had more money I would.
On another note… Russia is encouraging early marriage and large families…
And discouraging abortion and lgbtq+ stuff.
you have such a way with words, very funny! baby printer go brrrr, love it.
I have 4 marring/childbearing age women in my life currently. Here's the status:
1. Age 31 - married, no children, works FT
2. Age 31 - seriously dating one man for past year (could be the one?), works FT
3. Age 31 - married, one child (born 10/24), works PT
4. Age 26 - engaged, no children, works FT
When I was 31, I had 3 living children (2 more that were stillborns). Should have had more, but I do have the blessing of having 7 grandchildren).
My mother did it right: 7 children, 11 g-kids, 11 gg-kids (maybe more if those mentioned above have some children)
Here's to the trad women keeping families going!
Peachy, right on as usual. Great work, and throwing in the comedy made me laugh and think simultaneously. We can just hope those "youngsters " are doing the same.
Im one of those who are getting too late, but I’m not losing hope. As long as God permits, I’ll have as many kids as possible. Just need to get a godly husband who’s willing to get onto this journey with me lol
Maybe you should see if they need any volunteers to help run the next conference. People pay up to $10,000 to attend, so it could make an interesting place to look for a spouse.
Great read. Thanks. I read something on Substack a few weeks ago that really hit home with me - happy people make babies. I cannot attribute the author and it may have been a lowly commenter 😉.
Early marriage should be encouraged… of course you need early maturity… but it is possible.
I think you're right, but also the bar for "maturity" is probably not as high as we think it is. If kids grow up in and around mostly healthy, well-adjusted families, and learn some of the practical skills of living in their own home, that goes a long way.
That said, my husband and started dating in our late teens and got married in our early 20s. We've done a lot of maturing over the course of our relationship (we've been together now for 20 years and neither of us is 40 yet), but a lot of that maturation has been done together. We were already pointed in the right direction - I think by our third or fourth date we both discussed that we ultimately wanted to get married and have a family, and weren't into the idea of a casual fling - so in our case I think it helped that we figured out the discipline and finances and other skills "on the go." And we've done a lot of really fun things together, too.
I don't think I missed out at all being married young. Our friends who are just getting around to deciding they'd like to settle down are having a lot of trouble and are a lot more set in the ways they learned as single adults.
I don't intend this to be discouraging to those who haven't found someone yet, but I think we sometimes think about the wedding as the goal and the personal growth comes before. Some does, but less than many people think.
The biggest impediment to early maturity, in my opinion, is high school… most young people, up to the early 1900s, finished school with an 8th grade education… if you ever tried to take an “8th grade” exit exam… they weren’t easy.
15-18 year olds had a totally different focus back then… oh, and no church youth groups either.
My great grandfather, at 15, decided to apply to Annapolis… and got in. 1872. And graduated at 20.
Early marriage would probably make most boys (and girls) mature, especially if the economy also provided family-supporting jobs. I'm in a group reading "Middlemarch" now. There is an old wealthy bachelor scholar, Mr. Casaubon, who takes - actually accepts the worship of - a younger woman, Dorothea Brook, from another wealthy family. While on a kind of honeymoon in Rome (where he does research for his never to be written book), she meets his younger cousin, whom he supports, Will Ladislaw, who has heretofore been a kind of perpetual graduate student. Ladislaw is affected enough by Dorothea that he returns to England to start a career and earn a living, so he could support a wife.
"Healthy, well-adjusted families" is the kicker. Rob Henderson and JD Vance's memoirs were, shall I say, very relatable to myself and the friends I had growing up, just without the happy endings for most of them that Vance and Rob had. I did all the growing up in my 20s I should've had in my teens and childhood. Most of my friends from those days haven't even gotten *that* far.
Between that and all the messaging I got and saw from my "parent" and friends' "parents" to avoid marriage, avoid kids.. a lot of us were set up to fail re: marriage and kids. And the problem is no doubt worse for today's youth and will continue to worsen—out of wedlock births in the US are at 50% now iirc.
Us 30 and 20 somethings who didn't have that stable family growing up and *want* to marry and have a family are figuring it out and having to in the dating hellscape as we go. At least the problem solves itself in the end, I guess. 🤷♂️
And maybe more parentally controlled institutions where the courting and sparking occur?
Is the video of this presentation out yet? I would love to watch it. Reading this morning I chuckled out loud several times.
Never change sister.
The 2023 one is up at https://www.natalism.org/
Made three GenZers out there terrorizing the markets with ethics and hard work!
I made one too!
Married 43 years...6 kids...31 grandkids...one daughter a contemplative Poor Clare.
It comes down to religion. Raising children in this godless age is a sacrificial vocation. You only do it if you feel an obligation to a Power higher than yourself. You can't talk people into believing this...or living it.
The haunting Scriptural warning applies: "I have set before you life and death...the blessing and the curse...so choose life." The developed nations of the post-Christian world have made their choice, and I think they...we...are past the point of no return.